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[Real Alan]

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Now, this is a story all about how group

ironman got flipped-turned upside down.

And I'd like to take a minute 

Just sit right there 

I'll tell you how an admin rucked up group iron man.  

 

We start with a guy.  Let's call him Bob.

Bob's a regular player who just started GIM. 

He donates to the server; then joins the staff team.

He works his way up from server support

to player moderator and finally admin.

For his hard works, he's paid in tokens,

which exchanges for GIM removal tickets.

Putting 2 and 2 together,

Bob realizes what he found.

The cheat code to GIM

 

As admin, no one would question

or dare think twice

about what he's doing.

Buy GIM supplies. 

Buy GIM bank.  

Then when Bob quits,

sell it all back.

Who even cares?

Bob's not taking advantage of a loophole and playing ironman in a way that wasn't intended... or anything like that...

 

Now, in 2024 he's retired from staff.

After selling GIM bank, he claims it's too late

to stop the trading of group ironman banks.  

 

 

 

 

Moral of the story?

Want to be able to trade on GIM?

No problem, just become staff.  

 

Also Bob (in 2020)

 

 

To the many staff and community members who think that the damage is already done...

 

You are acknowledging that there is an integrity issue here with people not playing the game the way it was intended.  So as staff and leaders of the community, what are you going to do about it?  

 

 

 

Option 1: Fix it - how? just say no more trading GIM banks guys 

Option 2: Give up on it - merge it with normie/classic

 

Either way, there should not be a group or elite ironman bank trading economy.

 

Ironman is in the name for pete's sake.  It's blatantly obvious that trading of GIM banks is an abuse of game mechanics.  If you want to leave and join another GIM group because your teammates quit, I don't have a problem.  Do it.  But if you're deliberately trying to sell GIM items or buy GIM bank, that should be treated as a punishable offense for trying to violate ironman integrity (like RWT).  

 

@Foxxi said it it best...

 

So to summarize it up for you guys...

 

My problem with staff here is -> they don't see how ironman bank trading is problematic

And if they do -> they aren't taking any action to restore that integrity -> instead Alan has to bring this topic up and deal with flame from staff and ex-staff.  

 

At the very least, they could moderate the game suggestions better.

 

 

"In the past few days, literally every report has come from your threads. " - Admin @H

Response -> Well that's because I'm doing my part and reporting things that I think are against the rules.

 

That's not an excuse to not look into it and give each report fair judgment.

Do your job as forum moderators.  In particular, I'm referring to Logan and Not Shadow.

 

As for H, I have to give the man credit.  H is an exemplary staff member.  He sets a good example of how to handle game suggestions on forums.   While we may not always agree, I respect the way he explains his rationale without taking things off topic.  The man was up at 2 am responding to customer feedback.  He responded to each one of the points I brought up without giving any flame/hate/name calling.  He also asked for clarification on points he didn't understand – unlike To gain, who would usually take the my way or the highway; i dont care about what your way is, 'end of story' route.

 

As for admin Mufasa, that guy can learn a lot about how to moderate a game suggestion from H.

This comment came from a game suggestion on -> should we allow trading of group/elite ironman banks?

Here's how admin Mufasa responded.  He brought up Realism for some reason?  

I expect admin to be able to distinguish what's on and off topic for a suggestion post.

 

Lastly, I want to address why I told staff to ruck off when instructed to make a bug report.  

I do not regret that and would tell staff to ruck off again, any day.  Why?

Because their system of bug reports sucks.  Take the tecu salamander trees for example.

They've been bugged for 3 weeks now.  There's not 1 post from staff educating community members on the activities that are currently down.  

I could make a bug report like staff requested, but that's a waste of time.  Why?

Only 1 person needs to make the bug report.  Make it public knowledge that something is currently broken -> that way 10 players don't all need to waste 1 minute of their lives making the same freaking bug report.  

So how do you make bug reports (that don't cause exploitable damage) public?  -> you post it in game suggestion where the entire community can see.

However, when I put in 30 minutes of my time to be that person, take one for the team, and put that knowledge out there in game suggestions -> how do staff respond?

 

They delete my game suggestion -> claiming it's a bug -> then they tell me to stop making game suggestions that are bugs and to instead make bug reports.

 

When I try to tell them that bug reports aren't public and you don't need 10 people all making the same bug report, they don't seem to understand.  Not to mention, I was perm forum banned for the last year or so, where I couldn't even make bug reports.  So yeah, that's why I will continue to tell staff to ruck right off if they tell me to make a bug report.  It's not personal.  I just refuse to make bug reports.  Not like I'm getting paid tokens like staff for writing them up.  By the way, you had me perm forum muted for over a year.  Can you really be surprised when you get a whole bunch of game suggestions from me after you unmute me?

As for why I like to joke about To gain.  The guy sent me to port sarim jail for what?  playing the game in a way that wasn't intended

I hit nex 1 time with ZCB, then camouflaged as a penguin for the rest of the kill in Nex Mass. 

I even checked with To gain via PMs beforehand to make sure that this wasn't against the game rules. 

In fact, I reported other players that would run in last second, deal minimum damage, and snipe nex killcount after 20 seconds of work.

Staff rejected the report and said that was allowed.

Then when I do it, I'm the one that gets punished.

 

Here's my advice to staff.  We are just players.  We don't make the game.  We play the game.

Don't blame the player.  Blame the game.  

If staff have a problem with me playing the game in a way that wasn't intended (by just doing bare minimum damage on nex), why don't they have a problem with GIM bank trading where people are playing the entire game mode in a way that wasn't intended?  Why don't they blame how low they set the minimum damage to get loot threshold at nex? 

 

Perhaps it's because staff are paid in tokens which incentivizes them to buy/sell ironman banks with the GIM removal tickets that can be purchased via the very tokens they earn from staffing.

 

Lastly, there's the case of ex-staff Ivy.  Ivy needs to stop being so closed mined.

On one hand, Ivy will tell you -> you shouldn't really care what other players are doing as this doesn't affect your account directly.

On the other hand, Ivy will tell you -> this is the 'Alora' community forums -> everyone should get a say in whether Realism is merged

Ivy will provide the reasoning that merging realism will attract new players -> then, disregard the entire existing community it would uproot.

Similarly, I can argue that fixing GIM integrity will attract new players -> how many players don't play GIM because they know all the endgame players just buy/sell bank? 

Next, Ivy will explain that the server needs money from selling GIM removal tickets.  Without that it wouldn't be profitable.

To that, I'd like to say -> if you stop the buying/selling of banks of GIM/EIM, the people that want to buy bank and speedrun the game will turn to realism.  This will create more investment in Realism.  More rank tickets sold on the realism TP.  How come?  Because people need gp to buy realism bank.  What's my point?

Ex-staff Ivy can benefit from lightening up a bit and being less closed minded. 

 

Extra cringe just for Gim Crohn 

Red text just for Realmungard

 

Tune in next time for... 

My Problem with Staff 3

 

Link to previous - My Problem with Staff 1

[Filtered]

You need help. Will happily take the infraction for this reply.

[Linkki]

Shame on you, Bob.....

[Ivy]

Must of stepped on his lego or something, this kids mad.

Side note: Genuinely worried for your health, @sirkeravnosl is a registered psychiatrist if you ever need someone to talk to.

[gim crohn]

Seek help bro. 

[Slurvish]

How you haven't been rule 0'd is beyond me

[Mtam]

[RealAlanFanclub] Mtam: testing123

est.30/5/24 at 9:05pm   

[OzyNaMdies]

I'm sorry, but there's actually something wrong with you. Maybe you should visit a doctor. (No, this is not flamebait, this is a genuine concern)

You're scaring the new players.

[Sassa fras]

Perhaps it's because staff are paid in tokens which incentivizes them to buy/sell ironman banks with the GIM removal tickets that can be purchased via the very tokens they earn from staffing.

 

Time to put the tinfoil hat down and touch grass bud. Waiting for My Problem with Staff 3 to drop, its gonna be a banger.

[Thelos]

These kids on summer holidays gets crazy. 
 

But yeah, I don't understand what result you want to achieve with these 2 topics. 
Making change staff - I don't think that will happen, didn't saw anything critical from their side. 
If you want to show or make people think that you have some mental problems, then you succeeded. 

No hate, but you just need to relax a bit. In the end its only game, pause it if you see that it hurts your feelings. 

[Xp Monster]

Lmao, the dedication. Deep breaths and go for a walk.

[H]

 

A little observation I made: If you think GIM trading is such a big deal and compromises the integrity, why are you not advocating for other game mode changes too? For example HC's don't lose lives at TOB/Gauntlet, UIM's pretty much have access to banks with the various storage features, all game modes can get infinite cash/supplies from crystal keys if they have money on main, ironmen can kill bosses with normal accounts and so on?

 

Regarding bug reports, it's not hard to message a staff member and ask. The more bug reports that are made, the better. We don't need a big announcement stating something doesn't work.

 

Not going to comment on the rest of the thread, but I appreciate the positive feedback.

[SCIM Tamber]

pls stop

[Real Alan]

A little observation I made: If you think GIM trading is such a big deal and compromises the integrity, why are you not advocating for other game mode changes too? For example HC's don't lose lives at TOB/Gauntlet, UIM's pretty much have access to banks with the various storage features, all game modes can get infinite cash/supplies from crystal keys if they have money on main, ironmen can kill bosses with normal accounts and so on?   Regarding bug reports, it's not hard to message a staff member and ask. The more bug reports that are made, the better. We don't need a big announcement stating something doesn't work.   Not going to comment on the rest of the thread, but I appreciate the positive feedback.

 

 

@H selectively replying to you out of respect.  I get the feeling we are both trying to improve Alora in our own ways.

 

1. why are you not advocating for other game mode changes too?  I can if you want me to.  I just haven't gotten around to it yet.  I got a life too 

2. also the ironman integrity problem makes the whole server look bad.  if you were a new player, wouldn't you be turned off if you saw the game admins with yellow crowns yelling 'buying / selling GIM bank'?  that's why I prioritized it.

3. i wont comment on bugs reports.  we can both just respectfully disagree.

 

Thoughts to consider: Imagine you're at a theme park and after waiting an hour, you get to the front of the rollercoaster line only to find out it was broken the whole time–and nobody (none of the staff) let you know earlier.  when you ask the staff, "hey why didn't you let me know?' they tell you, "here fill out the form. The more people that fill out the form the better." 

 

Consider which would do more overall good:

A: filling out that form -> then waiting for everyone everyone else in line to work their way up to the front of the line & fill out that same form

B: making a public announcement -> telling everyone in line that the ride is broken so they can use their time elsewhere

 

As for the GIM suggestion, I'm just trying to stop players from openly advertising selling/buying GIM bank.

I'm all for letting players play however they want.  If they want to buy/sell bank under the table, I have no problem.

I'm not staff.  I won't be the guy enforcing it.  I just want that stuff out of the public, so Alora doesn't look like a joke to new players.

[Yautya]

This is the type of content that keeps me coming back

 

 

 

Edit: Alan for staff

[H]

@H selectively replying to you out of respect.  I get the feeling we are both trying to improve Alora in our own ways.

 

1. why are you not advocating for other game mode changes too?  I can if you want me to.  I just haven't gotten around to it yet.  I got a life too 

Fair enough. Personally I would include all of it at once in 1 thread but that's just me.

 

 

2. also the ironman integrity problem makes the whole server look bad.  if you were a new player, wouldn't you be turned off if you saw the game admins with yellow crowns yelling 'buying / selling GIM bank'?  that's why I prioritized it.

 

Not really, I'd just assume GIM works the same as OSRS green helm GIM's, just without the 2 icons to separate them. 

Also, the examples you're giving of "yellow crowns yelling....". The messages are like 3/4 years old, not sure why it's such a big deal all of a sudden.

 

 

 

3. i wont comment on bugs reports.  we can both just respectfully disagree.

 

Thoughts to consider: Imagine you're at a theme park and after waiting an hour, you get to the front of the rollercoaster line only to find out it was broken the whole time–and nobody (none of the staff) let you know earlier.  when you ask the staff, "hey why didn't you let me know?' they tell you, "here fill out the form. The more people that fill out the form the better." 

 

Consider which would do more overall good:

A: filling out that form -> then waiting for everyone everyone else in line to work their way up to the front of the line & fill out that same form

B: making a public announcement -> telling everyone in line that the ride is broken so they can use their time elsewhere

 

If you were a staff member in the past, you'd know that if we made a bug report public, or if we had a thread saying like "Current Issues", they're not read by the majority of players anyways. We're always asked about x or y and if it's working or not, and it's much easier to reply to them in-game than to refer them to a thread. A great example is the "List of Accepted Suggestions" thread we had a while back. It didn't stop people from suggesting stuff that we already accepted. Our suggestions are public too, so players can look through to make sure what they're suggesting isn't already suggested, but for most it's easier to message a staff member than to go research forums if the thing they're suggesting/reporting has already been mentioned.

 

 

 

As for the GIM suggestion, I'm just trying to stop players from openly advertising selling/buying GIM bank.

I'm all for letting players play however they want.  If they want to buy/sell bank under the table, I have no problem.

I'm not staff.  I won't be the guy enforcing it.  I just want that stuff out of the public, so Alora doesn't look like a joke to new players.

Like I said in your suggestion thread, it's too late to take any action now. It doesn't really impact anyone anymore. Players that want to play legit will play legit. I wasn't around for GIM release so I'm not sure how it impacted competitive rankings back then, but at this point it's not that big of a deal. Plus Omicron added a 1 month cooldown to trading your group after joining them which helped counter the issue you're complaining about.

I can't remember the last time a new player complained about GIM trading. No new player is joining and seeing someone selling/buying GIM items and going "oh fuck I don't really want to play now.", it doesn't really impact them.

[Real Alan]

Like I said in your suggestion thread, it's too late to take any action now. It doesn't really impact anyone anymore. Players that want to play legit will play legit. I wasn't around for GIM release so I'm not sure how it impacted competitive rankings back then, but at this point it's not that big of a deal. Plus Omicron added a 1 month cooldown to trading your group after joining them which helped counter the issue you're complaining about. I can't remember the last time a new player complained about GIM trading. No new player is joining and seeing someone selling/buying GIM items and going "oh fuck I don't really want to play now.", it doesn't really impact them.

 

 

Let me see if I understand you correctly.

My understanding of what you're saying - I am not willing to do anything to fix the ironman integrity because it is too late for that.  It doesn't impact anyone anymore.  Players that want to play legit will play legit.  This wasn't a problem on release (I wasn't personally there, but here's my opinion).  Omicron added a 1 month cooldown and I think that's enough to stop trading of GIM/EIM banks.  I can't remember the last time a new player complained about GIM trading.  My opinion is it doesn't impact new players.

 

1. if it's too late, why did you guys fix these things that Scorn mentioned?  Because it's the right thing to do for game integrity? 

There are many players out there that don't accept the "it's too late for that" excuse when it comes to game integrity.  

 

2. Players that want to play legit will play legit.  -> then why do you care about catching RWTers on Alora?  the players that play legit will still play legit even if you dont catch the RWTers.  Perhaps you catch them to ensure server profits because RWT is essentially cutting out the middleman and cheating Alora.   So whats my point?  If you guys can go after RWTers for cheating Alora, then you can go after GIM bank sellers/buyers for cheating Alora.  If your argument is 'buying/selling GIM bank doesn't affect the server', that's where we disagree, which is absolutely ok.  We can respectfully disagree on that and compare evidence another time.  

 

3. 1 month cooldown is enough -> if a GIM quits after buying a large bank, how does a 1 month cooldown really stop/prevent the trading of GIM banks?  

A 1 month wait is literally nothing.  Who's that going to stop?  The people playing GIM for years that suddenly quit?  The new GIM players buying bank?  Neither of those 2 are affected.  The only people its stopping are the short term merchers, which the cost of the GIM removal ticket have already deterred.  If you want to actually deter GIM trading, all you need to do is add it to the rules.  When you quit, no more selling your GIM bank to another group.  

 

4. I can't remember the last time a new player complained about GIM trading 

I'd urge you to re-check the support comments on the game suggestion.  There are certainly other people who feel the same way I do. 

It's not that they're not talking/complaining.  You're just not listening for complaints.

By making the suggestion thread, I amplified their voices so staff can now hear their complaints.  

Please try a little to listen.

 

5. It doesn't impact new players - it certainly does.  Ask any OSRS friend who doesn't play Alora, would he rather play a RSPS GIM on a server where other GIMs are buying/selling GIM bank or on a server where they're not (given all other factors held constant)?

Personally, I would not want to invest my time, money, and effort into a marathon where other runners are paying to ride in a cab to the finish line.  To each their own, though.  You don't have to see things the same way I do.  I'm not bothered in the slightest.

Much respect 4 your work ethic and willingness to try understanding others' point of view.

[H]

1. if it's too late, why did you guys fix these things that Scorn mentioned?  Because it's the right thing to do for game integrity? 

There are many players out there that don't accept the "it's too late for that" excuse when it comes to game integrity.  

 

 

 

There's a massive difference between fixing unintended bugs that allow you to ignore parts of a raid, and intentionally coding the ability to allow GIM accounts to join other groups. If it was coded how you're suggesting, most GIM's would quit. Go ask the top 10 GIM groups/players if they're in the same group they started with. 

 

It also seems like you're contradicting what you're saying. At first you were saying GIM's shouldn't be allowed to trade/sell their banks to other players, and now you're saying it's fine as long as it's done under the table? 

 

 

2. Players that want to play legit will play legit.  -> then why do you care about catching RWTers on Alora?  the players that play legit will still play legit even if you dont catch the RWTers.  Perhaps you catch them to ensure server profits because RWT is essentially cutting out the middleman and cheating Alora.   So whats my point?  If you guys can go after RWTers for cheating Alora, then you can go after GIM bank sellers/buyers for cheating Alora.  If your argument is 'buying/selling GIM bank doesn't affect the server', that's where we disagree, which is absolutely ok.  We can respectfully disagree on that and compare evidence another time.  

 

There are several factors as to why we don't let people RWT. I'll tell you a little true story. A few years ago, a private server released. It was by far one of the biggest releases in RSPS history, with over 3,000 players attempting to play during the first hour. During the next few weeks the player count stayed at a steady 2,000 and at this point people were looking to buy this RSPS gold. Venezuelans took this opportunity and flooded several easy money makers such as Ardounge Knights to essentially flood the economy with cash. The staff didn't really ban people for RWT at this point, so you'd see hundreds of accounts at these locations, which isn't healthy for the game. 

 

What I'm trying to get at here is, if we suddenly "let legit people play legit" like you're saying with your RWT example, we'll get a bunch of bad actors in the game that solely play to make money and sell it. This results in both us having players that don't really play to enjoy the game, as well as the economy going to shit very quickly.

I've played a few private servers in the past where RWT was allowed, and logging in every day to see people yelling "selling gp for osrs!!" made me feel like the server was dying.

 

So yeah, a bit of an extreme comparison from you. Allowing GIM players to trade is simply a by-product of allowing GIM accounts to join other groups if theirs dies out, or else nobody would play GIM at all. 

 

 

 

3. 1 month cooldown is enough -> if a GIM quits after buying a large bank, how does a 1 month cooldown really stop/prevent the trading of GIM banks?  

A 1 month wait is literally nothing.  Who's that going to stop?  The people playing GIM for years that suddenly quit?  The new GIM players buying bank?  Neither of those 2 are affected.  The only people its stopping are the short term merchers, which the cost of the GIM removal ticket have already deterred.  If you want to actually deter GIM trading, all you need to do is add it to the rules.  When you quit, no more selling your GIM bank to another group.  

 

I don't think you understand how the mechanic works. As it is right now, if you're a GIM player and you decide that you want to sell all of your items, you need to find a player to sell it to. You find GIM H wanting to buy everything, but to do that you need to be in the same group. I join your group but now I have to wait a month in order to trade you. Most people can't be bothered waiting an entire month just to buy stuff, and most new players don't have near enough cash to justify buying GIM items, so the only people that benefit from GIM trading are long term players.

 

 

4. I can't remember the last time a new player complained about GIM trading 

I'd urge you to re-check the support comments on the game suggestion.  There are certainly other people who feel the same way I do. 

It's not that they're not talking/complaining.  You're just not listening for complaints.

By making the suggestion thread, I amplified their voices so staff can now hear their complaints.  

Please try a little to listen.

 

I suggest you re-read my sentence: "I can't remember the last time a new player complained about GIM trading."

From a quick glance, I'm not seeing genuine new players complain about it. 

Even then, if we said "ok fuck it there's considerable support from players to eliminate GIM trading, what exactly are we going to do?

 

Simply not allowing people to advertise their buying/selling will just force people to jump through hoops, or trade in private discord servers. It doesn't really solve it because GIM trading would still be allowed. Then some GIM player would yell they're selling their shit, and a staff member would have to warn them and say "oh hey you actually can't advertise that, but it's fine if you join this discord and do it instead". 

 

If we go with the second approach of simply not allowing GIM's to join other groups, then most groups would simply die out like I said earlier. You'd have groups of 5 where 1 or 2 play and if you played GIM, you'd know its shit and joining another group is much more fun. 

 

I am listening. I know you hate this topic, but I'll give you an example using your own words.

There were complaints about how playing Realism mode was essentially like playing ironman mode, it's very rough to get started. A thread was made suggesting a merge and amplified voices of those that had complaints. I'd urge you to re-check the support comments in that suggestion. There are certainly other people who feel the same way as the thread author did.

 

Just because some people support it, doesn't mean it should be added. Sometimes it's a good idea to consider all options instead of just adding what people support. In this case leaving GIM as it is seems like the better option. Half the arguments don't really make sense or are not feasible, which I already discussed above.

 

 

5. It doesn't impact new players - it certainly does.  Ask any OSRS friend who doesn't play Alora, would he rather play a RSPS GIM on a server where other GIMs are buying/selling GIM bank or on a server where they're not (given all other factors held constant)?

Personally, I would not want to invest my time, money, and effort into a marathon where other runners are paying to ride in a cab to the finish line.  To each their own, though.  You don't have to see things the same way I do.  I'm not bothered in the slightest.

Much respect 4 your work ethic and willingness to try understanding others' point of view.

 

I can ask OSRS players about any piece of Alora content and they won't like it, which is why they're playing OSRS in the first place. 

I would understand your argument if GIM was released last month, but it wasn't. It has been around for 5 years, you're not really competing against anyone at this point. People play at their own pace. Some like to form a group with their friends and grind everything from scratch, others like to jump right into the action by buying endgame gear. To each their own.

 

It's like me complaining about OSRS allowing players to use alts to accelerate their progress. Personally, I would not want to invest my time, money, and effort into a marathon where other runners are paying to ride in a cab to the finish line.

 

If I was around back then and I was an admin, I would heavily encourage Omicron to add ranked/unranked GIM's, but at this point it's too late. Adding it would mean that players like Variant, with pretty much every endgame pvm item bought would be grandfathered into the ranked GIM mode, despite them buying their stuff, which would be unfair for new ranked GIM players, knowing that one of the top GIM players bought all of their stuff and they can't.

 

Regarding your marathon comment; you're not restricted from GIM trading. You can buy items just like they did if you want. It's a choice.

[Bigboxbob]

I promised myself i will read all of it but i let myself down.